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	<title>Comments on: Point-Counterpoint In Madison</title>
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	<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/</link>
	<description>Drew McManus on the orchestra business</description>
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		<title>By: Drew McManus</title>
		<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/comment-page-1/#comment-4051</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew McManus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 03:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4279#comment-4051</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re ever concerned about moderation filtering out certain views, just visit this thread from an article a few days ago: http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4302#comments The fact that your above comment has appeared is another clear indication.

As for bringing in a different mediator to assist in the WCO situation, that is certainly a step that has been successful in other contentious negotiations but individuals with enough influence to bring about a mutually agreeable resolution are few and far between. There have been cases in recent years where this has worked wonderfully and there have been cases where some spectacular individuals have attempted to mediate disputes to no avail, which goes to show that silver bullets don&#039;t exist. 

For the benefit of all stakeholders, issues are examined here in much greater detail than what is allowed in print media outlets. This provides a clearer picture to all stakeholders of not only any given labor dispute but how the issues in each respective instance interact with historical trends and the current orchestral environment. 

I&#039;m certain you&#039;ve noticed that there are no unique quotes from the WCO management or negotiators. They are contacted for quotes prior to each WCO related article but, so far, they decline those opportunities. Fortunately, this isn&#039;t the norm in most situations and you can dig through Adaptistration&#039;s archives for some excellent exchange of views between managers and musicians at other orchestras. 

The unintended result in the WCO articles to date is there is less focus on the WCO&#039;s positions compared to musicians becasue the musicians have been willing to share additional views that go beyond what is reported in the print media.  

All of this demonstrates that any process is only as good as the people involved. Ultimately, you can&#039;t start over in negotiations and people are people, the sort of emotional baggage you describe isn&#039;t easy to shed. Instead, you usually have to work through those issues along with everything else that has taken place and (hopefully) both sides will eventually begin work to restore relationships.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re ever concerned about moderation filtering out certain views, just visit this thread from an article a few days ago: <a href="http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4302#comments" rel="nofollow">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4302#comments</a> The fact that your above comment has appeared is another clear indication.</p>
<p>As for bringing in a different mediator to assist in the WCO situation, that is certainly a step that has been successful in other contentious negotiations but individuals with enough influence to bring about a mutually agreeable resolution are few and far between. There have been cases in recent years where this has worked wonderfully and there have been cases where some spectacular individuals have attempted to mediate disputes to no avail, which goes to show that silver bullets don&#8217;t exist. </p>
<p>For the benefit of all stakeholders, issues are examined here in much greater detail than what is allowed in print media outlets. This provides a clearer picture to all stakeholders of not only any given labor dispute but how the issues in each respective instance interact with historical trends and the current orchestral environment. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m certain you&#8217;ve noticed that there are no unique quotes from the WCO management or negotiators. They are contacted for quotes prior to each WCO related article but, so far, they decline those opportunities. Fortunately, this isn&#8217;t the norm in most situations and you can dig through Adaptistration&#8217;s archives for some excellent exchange of views between managers and musicians at other orchestras. </p>
<p>The unintended result in the WCO articles to date is there is less focus on the WCO&#8217;s positions compared to musicians becasue the musicians have been willing to share additional views that go beyond what is reported in the print media.  </p>
<p>All of this demonstrates that any process is only as good as the people involved. Ultimately, you can&#8217;t start over in negotiations and people are people, the sort of emotional baggage you describe isn&#8217;t easy to shed. Instead, you usually have to work through those issues along with everything else that has taken place and (hopefully) both sides will eventually begin work to restore relationships.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/comment-page-1/#comment-4050</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 00:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4279#comment-4050</guid>
		<description>Drew,

Thanks for the clarification.  I realize it would be important to maintain anonymity in certain circumstances.  I guess it&#039;s o.k. as long as the &quot;moderating&quot; doesn&#039;t amount to censorship, with all due respect.  I realize also that you need to protect the integrity of the site, but I hope that things aren&#039;t being dismissed if not agreeing with what seems to be sort of a unilateral position.  I just want the two sides to come together so that the concerts can return.  Truth be told, I&#039;m a subscriber so I have that vested interest.  I would wonder if a third party (not the mediators, since I&#039;ve assumed they haven&#039;t been able to get anywhere) could &quot;start over&quot; to get rid of all the emotion and baggage that comes with contentious negotiations that seem to be lasting a long time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drew,</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification.  I realize it would be important to maintain anonymity in certain circumstances.  I guess it&#8217;s o.k. as long as the &#8220;moderating&#8221; doesn&#8217;t amount to censorship, with all due respect.  I realize also that you need to protect the integrity of the site, but I hope that things aren&#8217;t being dismissed if not agreeing with what seems to be sort of a unilateral position.  I just want the two sides to come together so that the concerts can return.  Truth be told, I&#8217;m a subscriber so I have that vested interest.  I would wonder if a third party (not the mediators, since I&#8217;ve assumed they haven&#8217;t been able to get anywhere) could &#8220;start over&#8221; to get rid of all the emotion and baggage that comes with contentious negotiations that seem to be lasting a long time.</p>
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		<title>By: Drew McManus</title>
		<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/comment-page-1/#comment-4049</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew McManus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4279#comment-4049</guid>
		<description>Hi Mary, I&#039;ll jump in here for a sec and make sure everyone is aware of my perspective on anonymity and comments. In general, I encourage readers to leave their real name with posts but there are circumstances that warrant otherwise. For example, anyone in a position to suffer retribution from a superior for expressing an opinion is a good candidate for using a moniker. 

I&#039;ve had cases where musicians who don&#039;t share the opinion of their colleagues post those feelings in a comment. Likewise, an orchestra manager expressing an opinion contrary to his/her boss is also encouraged to use a moniker. Now, I don&#039;t tolerate unjustified personal attacks nor do I allow individuals to use anonymity to spread unverifiable information. Meaning, if an orchestra staffer or musician wrote to say their organization can&#039;t make payroll this week, I would need to have that verified before I would allow it to be published.

This is why comments are moderated but NEVER edited; furthermore, comments diverging from my own opinion are regularly posted. All of this contributes a platform that provides an environment of meaningful discussion that doesn&#039;t shy away from strong opinions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mary, I&#8217;ll jump in here for a sec and make sure everyone is aware of my perspective on anonymity and comments. In general, I encourage readers to leave their real name with posts but there are circumstances that warrant otherwise. For example, anyone in a position to suffer retribution from a superior for expressing an opinion is a good candidate for using a moniker. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve had cases where musicians who don&#8217;t share the opinion of their colleagues post those feelings in a comment. Likewise, an orchestra manager expressing an opinion contrary to his/her boss is also encouraged to use a moniker. Now, I don&#8217;t tolerate unjustified personal attacks nor do I allow individuals to use anonymity to spread unverifiable information. Meaning, if an orchestra staffer or musician wrote to say their organization can&#8217;t make payroll this week, I would need to have that verified before I would allow it to be published.</p>
<p>This is why comments are moderated but NEVER edited; furthermore, comments diverging from my own opinion are regularly posted. All of this contributes a platform that provides an environment of meaningful discussion that doesn&#8217;t shy away from strong opinions.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/comment-page-1/#comment-4048</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4279#comment-4048</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m getting the feeling from your comments that you&#039;re one of the WCO musicians; is that the truth?  If so, that&#039;s important to know, I guess.  I don&#039;t know if this is supposed to be a neutral site or a &quot;platform&quot; site; I thought it was more of an open forum, but maybe not.  I don&#039;t really care one way or the other, but just think that if we&#039;re talking about &quot;truth&quot; and conflicts of interest, it should be said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m getting the feeling from your comments that you&#8217;re one of the WCO musicians; is that the truth?  If so, that&#8217;s important to know, I guess.  I don&#8217;t know if this is supposed to be a neutral site or a &#8220;platform&#8221; site; I thought it was more of an open forum, but maybe not.  I don&#8217;t really care one way or the other, but just think that if we&#8217;re talking about &#8220;truth&#8221; and conflicts of interest, it should be said.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas</title>
		<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/comment-page-1/#comment-4027</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4279#comment-4027</guid>
		<description>This is going to sound a little weird, Mary, but bear with me.  Doug Gerhart isn&#039;t really part of the problem at all.  And for us, that IS a problem.  His being relegated to mere messenger (when he is a fully qualified industry expert) has ground these negotiations to a halt.  We want to negotiate with Doug; we like him and are glad to have him.  We don&#039;t understand why our board won&#039;t let the man do his job.  For now, he&#039;s only serving as a very well-paid spokesperson.  We hope this changes soon, to everyone&#039;s benefit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is going to sound a little weird, Mary, but bear with me.  Doug Gerhart isn&#8217;t really part of the problem at all.  And for us, that IS a problem.  His being relegated to mere messenger (when he is a fully qualified industry expert) has ground these negotiations to a halt.  We want to negotiate with Doug; we like him and are glad to have him.  We don&#8217;t understand why our board won&#8217;t let the man do his job.  For now, he&#8217;s only serving as a very well-paid spokesperson.  We hope this changes soon, to everyone&#8217;s benefit.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/comment-page-1/#comment-4016</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4279#comment-4016</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not very familiar with Doug Gerhart; do you think he is part of the problem, or just the messenger?  In other words, if there was someone else involved in negotiations, do you think things would go differently?  I don&#039;t know what his experience is.

And, with all due respect, I don&#039;t really know why to believe one &quot;truth&quot; over another.  It seems the truth is in the eye of the beholder, whoever that is at the moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not very familiar with Doug Gerhart; do you think he is part of the problem, or just the messenger?  In other words, if there was someone else involved in negotiations, do you think things would go differently?  I don&#8217;t know what his experience is.</p>
<p>And, with all due respect, I don&#8217;t really know why to believe one &#8220;truth&#8221; over another.  It seems the truth is in the eye of the beholder, whoever that is at the moment.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/comment-page-1/#comment-4015</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4279#comment-4015</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t realize the WCO was punishing the musicians.  Was that the thing that happened in October or more recently?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t realize the WCO was punishing the musicians.  Was that the thing that happened in October or more recently?</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas</title>
		<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/comment-page-1/#comment-4011</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 06:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4279#comment-4011</guid>
		<description>Listen to what Hannah is saying, Mary.  On the surface, the WCO musicians can easily be cast in a negative light.  Bad economy, layoffs, uncertainty all around - I&#039;m sure we can all agree that this is the worst possible time for anyone to find themselves in a strike situation.  

Hannah says that all the musicians want is to be treated fairly; I would ever-so-slightly disagree and say that all they want is to be treated with honesty.  When service guarantees (work days) are agreed upon at 75, dropped to 35, then raised back to 58 - what are we supposed to believe?  We&#039;ve all lost thousands of dollars in income adhering to good-faith bargaining; Doug Gerhart has not lost a dime.  Let me be very clear, Mary - WCO musicians are hurting right now; some are hurting BADLY.  

We have the truth, the rule of law which we must follow, and that&#039;s about it.  Our employer can say whatever they want to our ticket buyers and the public while we have to do everything by the book.  We&#039;ve committed ourselves and our careers to the WCO; all have strived to make this orchestra a top priority, some have even moved here to better facilitate that commitment - for a part-time job!

Mary, we want the strike and the drama to end.  We want to be as &quot;confident about the future&quot; as Doug Gerhart claims to be.  To share in that confidence, we must have the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Listen to what Hannah is saying, Mary.  On the surface, the WCO musicians can easily be cast in a negative light.  Bad economy, layoffs, uncertainty all around &#8211; I&#8217;m sure we can all agree that this is the worst possible time for anyone to find themselves in a strike situation.  </p>
<p>Hannah says that all the musicians want is to be treated fairly; I would ever-so-slightly disagree and say that all they want is to be treated with honesty.  When service guarantees (work days) are agreed upon at 75, dropped to 35, then raised back to 58 &#8211; what are we supposed to believe?  We&#8217;ve all lost thousands of dollars in income adhering to good-faith bargaining; Doug Gerhart has not lost a dime.  Let me be very clear, Mary &#8211; WCO musicians are hurting right now; some are hurting BADLY.  </p>
<p>We have the truth, the rule of law which we must follow, and that&#8217;s about it.  Our employer can say whatever they want to our ticket buyers and the public while we have to do everything by the book.  We&#8217;ve committed ourselves and our careers to the WCO; all have strived to make this orchestra a top priority, some have even moved here to better facilitate that commitment &#8211; for a part-time job!</p>
<p>Mary, we want the strike and the drama to end.  We want to be as &#8220;confident about the future&#8221; as Doug Gerhart claims to be.  To share in that confidence, we must have the truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Hannah</title>
		<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/comment-page-1/#comment-4007</link>
		<dc:creator>Hannah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4279#comment-4007</guid>
		<description>Mary, you are correct that these are difficult times for the arts.  The interesting thing is that the WCO claims that the economy has not affected their ability to afford to present concerts.  Being careful about over-extension is one thing, but if an orchestra uses the state of the economy as an excuse to punish their musicians for exercising their right to strike, no one wins.  The musicians have made many concessions over the course of negotiations, including taking a pay cut.  The truth is that both sides were ready to come to an agreement in January and then the WCO reneged on previously agreed upon items which severely impact the musicians&#039; ability to earn a living.  All the musicians want is to be treated fairly.  That&#039;s what this strike has always been about.  If the WCO board would come to the table and bargain fairly, rationally, and logically, Madison would see an end to this strike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary, you are correct that these are difficult times for the arts.  The interesting thing is that the WCO claims that the economy has not affected their ability to afford to present concerts.  Being careful about over-extension is one thing, but if an orchestra uses the state of the economy as an excuse to punish their musicians for exercising their right to strike, no one wins.  The musicians have made many concessions over the course of negotiations, including taking a pay cut.  The truth is that both sides were ready to come to an agreement in January and then the WCO reneged on previously agreed upon items which severely impact the musicians&#8217; ability to earn a living.  All the musicians want is to be treated fairly.  That&#8217;s what this strike has always been about.  If the WCO board would come to the table and bargain fairly, rationally, and logically, Madison would see an end to this strike.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.adaptistration.com/2009/03/27/point-counterpoint-in-madison/comment-page-1/#comment-4006</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 18:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=4279#comment-4006</guid>
		<description>It is interesting that, in these difficult times, the WCO musicians have so much work that they can apparently afford to continue this strike indefinitely when so many others have lost their jobs or are at least taking pay cuts.  All nonprofit organizations have had a severe decrease in corporate and individual giving, and if nothing else has been learned from the nation and world&#039;s recent economic woes, organizations do have a responsibility to be careful about over-extension.  The terms proposed seem reasonable; I don&#039;t know why the WCO musicians feel the need to continue the drama.  They are quickly losing the support of the community (and, I daresay, likely their fellow musicians) for their continued lack of participation in trying to solve this strike.  What have they done or conceded?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is interesting that, in these difficult times, the WCO musicians have so much work that they can apparently afford to continue this strike indefinitely when so many others have lost their jobs or are at least taking pay cuts.  All nonprofit organizations have had a severe decrease in corporate and individual giving, and if nothing else has been learned from the nation and world&#8217;s recent economic woes, organizations do have a responsibility to be careful about over-extension.  The terms proposed seem reasonable; I don&#8217;t know why the WCO musicians feel the need to continue the drama.  They are quickly losing the support of the community (and, I daresay, likely their fellow musicians) for their continued lack of participation in trying to solve this strike.  What have they done or conceded?</p>
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